Unchurchable

The Pipelines - Closetted to Out, Proud Academic Researcher

When Dr Luke Wilson reached out to me with a copy of his book, I was struck by the most obvious thing in the world - I'm the ex-wife of a gay conversion therapy survivor but I've never had someone on the podcast who could actually talk in depth about that very thing. 

 

I guess it was too close to home. But its time. We need to move from representation to meaningful change, and that means understanding on a deep and nuanced level that sexual orientation and gender identity change efforts aren't always what you think they are. 

This episode hits on some big topics. Mental health, sexuality, genocide. Look after yourself as you listen. And remember you can call helplines if you need. In Australia, Lifeline is 13 11 14 and Qlife is 1800 184 527. In America, you can call 988. This is important stuff for all of us. But if its you, its REALLY important. There are safe hands to catch you as you recover. 

The long-ass URL for Dr Luke's book, Shame-Sex Attraction is as follows: https://www.amazon.com.au/Shame-Sex-Attraction-Survivors-Stories-Conversion-ebook/dp/B0D1S6SHC8/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.68eQVaWIgXB4gJREAz4RVPbwpkkCcVmdfJlm2WsT94Mnu2tfgUqzMhIVzDdME3t13Eth7h1oBh8slz8hQdk24wKq0TW4WLFIA3DIhDNVaV4.FxuRjpQ7Xp9MBxN-GqDYKhC_ZWqJX3TOy0nUcAmUzl4&dib_tag=se&keywords=shame-sex+attraction&qid=1733923623&sr=8-1

 

Luke's social media handles are as follows. 

Instagram: @lukeslamdunkwilson

Threads: @lukeslamdunkwilson

Bluesky: @lukeslamdunkwilson.bsky.social

Twitter/X: @wilson_fw

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucas-wilson-2a0753b1/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/luke.wilson.96

 

The Pipelines - "Jane Kennedy Must Save the World" to "She Doesn't Actually"

In this episode of "The Pipelines" series, we meet Jane Kennedy. While she is now a religious trauma therapist and co-founder of the Religious Trauma Collective in Australia (which compiles resources and religious trauma-informed therapists for those of us who are recovering), she was once a youth leader and church planter. 

In this episode, Jane and I talk about some of the big themes that have emerged in her walk into and out of church, and the things that pop up in therapy a lot: from white saviourism, to dissociation, body awareness, "the father heart of God" and other recruitment tactics. Jane's calm presence and hard-won wisdom makes this episode a lot more relaxing than it could be! 

Find her at: on Substack at https://jane748.substack.com

and on Instagram at @janekennedycounselling 

 

Find me at: clareheathmcivor.substack.com and on instagram at @unchurchablepod or @clare_heathmcivor

Blake Chastain - Christian Nationalism, the wild right-wing lurch and how to fight back

In an episode that was recorded two days after the Trump victory, and less than 200 days from the next Australian Federal Election, this episode could not be more important or timely. In it, I chat to Blake Chastain, who launched the Exvangelical Podcast back in 2016 as he talks about his new book "Exvangelical and Beyond: How American Christianity Went Radical and the Movement That's Fighting Back."

We have long known that, where America goes religiously and politically, the western world tends to follow. In line with this, strains of Christian Nationalism, even white Christian nationalism, and other forms of fringe and extreme right-wing politics has spiked both here and overseas. 

Its one to pay attention to. Make sure you give it a listen. And if you're in Australia in the political scene, make sure you take the warnings and the advice seriously. 

www.blakechastain.com

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/747796/exvangelical-and-beyond-by-blake-chastain/

Instagram @brchastian_

William Egginton - Borges, Kant, Heisenberg and the meaning of self and the universe

You know I like to get existential. This time last year, I sat down with author and academic, William/Bill Egginton to talk about his book, "The Rigor of Angels." I'd been contacted by his publicist and was intrigued about the book and what it might offer exvangelicals who are reinventing themselves and might not know anything about poetry, philosophy, and quantum mechanics, much less the meaning of the Universe. It was too good a conversation to let sit in the archives after my year of hiatus. Since our chat, his book has won some awards including New York Times and New Yorker book of the year. You'll love it. And I hope you love this chat. 

Find out more here https://www.williamegginton.com/ or here https://www.amazon.com.au/Rigor-Angels-Heisenberg-Ultimate-Reality/dp/0593316304

The Pipelines! From PK to Forest Witch (or something like that anyway) with Jess Manusama

Its quite a journey to go from eldest pastors kid, with full worship leader, Sunday school teacher, 'dating revelation' adherent and homeschool survivor to forest walking animistic spiritualist who runs womens circles. But that's Jess Manusama. She's a breath of fresh air. She runs the insta account @the.connectedself and the web page www.theconnectedself.com.au 

If you're one of those people who lost touch with themself, their sense of embodiment, the right to own your story and feel it, give her a follow. If you want to work with her in womens circles, deconstructors circles, or one to one mentoring, head over to her socials or website. 

Jess is such a soothing and non-judgemental presence, with a sense of humour but an ability to create and hold space where we connect with the medicine within. All outside of dogma. Because the last thing we need as we deconstruct is more of that. 

The Pipelines! Part One: Christian professor to Asian American Apostate With R. Scott Okamoto

Unchurchable is back from a long hiatus, and kicking off "The Pipelines" series is the incredible R. Scott Okamoto. Scott was a teacher at a Christian college when his deconstruction started. Rather than solidifying a waning faith, Scott got the same Sunday School answers to life's big questions. Join us as we talk about Zionism, white supremacy, the chinks in the armour of Biblical literacy, and finally, his journey into authorhood and podcaster-ness. 

Find Scott hosting the "Horny Chapel" and "Chapel Probation" podcasts, as well as his instagram (@rsokamoto) and Twittere (@rsokamoto) for more good stuff! 

Teaser: Unchurchable is coming back!

Hey all! Yes, I know I disappeared. But I'm back, and so is unchurchable. If you've got ten minutes, have a listen to this teaser and, if you feel like it, slide into my DM's on twitter (@clare_mcivor) or on Instagram @unchurchablepod or @clare_heathmcivor) to let me know your thoughts. 

This season is going to get nerdy! Go deeper into themes rather than focusing solely on survival stories, and talk about the pipelines. "The pipelines?", you say... "What do you mean by that?" Have a listen and find out

Ronna Derrick -What if we let women tell their own stories?

In this months episode, the lovely, courageous, intelligent Ronna Detrick joins me to talk about her newly-released book "Rewriting Eve." 

It started from a simple place: in seminary, when the guys translated a passage of scripture, it came out vastly different to how the women's translations came out. The subjects and verbs were correct. But the nuance, the subtext, the angle - all vastly different. 

And so Ronna set about rewriting Eve (and other Biblical women). The result is powerful insight into what happens when we let women tell their own stories. I'll admit this one hit heavy for me. After all, I am a woman who is only just learning to write her own story. I suspect many Exvangelical women may feel the same. We've been called crazy, headstrong, unstable, divisive, emotional, Jezebelic and all sorts. But maybe that was patriarchy writing our stories for us. 

Find out more about Ronna on Insta, FB or here https://ronnadetrick.com 

And enjoy the episode 

Cynane Shay - A Crash Course in Conspiracy Theories and Totalitarianism

This is a "Listen hard" kind of episode. What do conspiracy theories, anti-semitic handbooks, lizard people, space lasers, Qanon, 5G towers and cults have in common? It's mindboggling how the checkered history of Evangelicalism is imbued with anti-semitism and white supremacy. I'm not sure why I'm surprised, when evangelicalism itself is a very whitewashed sort of reality. This episode talks about how totalitarianism, conspiracy theories and cults are built on a very similar, very toxic sort of foundation. 

Find Cynane on Instagram - @taking.off.the.tinfoil.hat - or on the interwebs where you can find her booklist - www.takingoffthetinfoilhat.com

Troy Waller and Brian McDowell - Teenage Fundamentalists Learn to Call Bullshit

In this episode, the voices from the "I was a teenage fundamentalist" podcast join me to talk about the things they've learned along the way as exvangelicals, as people, as podcast hosts and community builders...and as two guys who had to learn to call bullshit sometimes. Troy Waller and Brian McDowell take an irreverent walk through their lives and talk about the commonalities we all seem to share when it comes to our individual journeys post-church. 

"I was a teenage fundamentalist" is an Australian-based deconstruction podcast and community that is making waves, and its a treat to have another couple of Aussie accents in my own corner of the interwebs. If you want to listen or subscribe to their pod, its here https://open.spotify.com/show/5tbYeCgmIuYwZBiZ9yGKbw?si=31d555756c5d491f and my episode is here https://open.spotify.com/episode/24L6bYEQEtQ0yQiF1FeLwq?si=db432056f890453e