Unchurchable

Celeste Mott lives in New Orleans these days - a professional TikToker and practicing Witch who educates other new brooms on witchcraft. But once upon a time she was a UK born, Perth raised teenager whose love for Ann Rice's vampire novels saw her join a fan group. Little did she know she was about to get drawn into a predatory vampire cult. In this episode, Celeste talks with me about her experiences, the commonalities across all cults, and the ways in which New Apostolic Reformation-leaning evangelicalism resembles the darker aspects of witchcraft, but with none of the consent or ethical checks most witches take very seriously. 

Its a conversation I never thought I'd have during the days of my childhood, when "Carman" graced my playlist alongside precisely no worldly music. But the contents of this 'witches invitation' actually asks the question - where are the ethics in Christian and pseudo-Christian communities that lean in the direction of cultic and high-control group behaviour. 

Yes, I used "The Good Place" naming paradigm for this one. Cynane Shay joins me to talk about the wildest thing I've heard in a while. Well, the wildest thing I've heard since this morning when I read the latest Trump Headlines, because thats the world we live in at the moment. 

Cynane is a nuclear engineer whose fascination for conspiracy theories and the far-right has caused to her to look deep into what we believe and why. And this one is a doozy. Follow her On instagram (taking off the tinfoil hat) or check out her website below. 

www.TakingOffTheTinfoilHat.com

I've been wanting to get Celeste on the podcast for a while. As an out and proud trans woman who doesn't hold the same hatred for church as what the modern day Church seems to hold for trans people, she is a gentle and calm voice in a turbulent sea. In the lead up to the second inauguration of Donald Trump, she was rushing facial feminisation surgery, and now she's living authentically as a parent and partner in a country in which being herself is a revolutionary act. 

She is trans. And she is Christian. And you should follow her on substack at https://www.celestefinally.com or on instagram @celestefinally

 

Today's episode is a special one. When my friend and co-runner of the Victorian Cult Survivors Network told me she had finally found the courage to tell her story in its full and raw form, I shot my hand up to host it here with the Unchurchables. 

Renee lost her daughter to the Kidney Cult (also known as the Jesus Christians). Somewhere, her daughter still exists. She is still loved and missed, but mother and daughter are on opposite sides of the ocean, and of an idealogical divide brokered by a cruel cult leader - one who Renee successfully sued for defamation and won. 

Todays episode is a heartbreaking tale with all of the trigger warnings. But I hope it serves as a reminder that the damage of cults isn't limlited to the one on the inside. Estranged parents and family of those radicalised into coercive cults are part of that damage too, and their stories matter greatly. Go kindly as you listen. Thank you Renee for finding your voice, and fighting for reform. One day, I hope to celebrate with you as your daughter finds her way back to you.

Find her work at the links below: 

www.recoverfromcoercivecontrol.com⁩  

⁦https://youtube.com/@recoverfromcoercivecontrol?si=erwBTZuadZn17PYH⁩ 

⁦https://www.tiktok.com/@renee_rfcc?_t=ZS-8xH0nR18CoC&_r=1⁩ 

This episode comes with a content warning: we are discussing heavy themes including coerced marriage and modern slavery. Please look after yourself as you read.

This is an important episode. Art Sherwood, host of the DisAllusioned podcast, joins me to talk about how she applied for a job as a massage therapist and got radicalised into a philosophy cult that later coerced her into marrying the cult leader. He was blind, riddled with physical health issues, and 37 years her senior. Ari did not fit any of the 'normal' risk factors for joining a cult. She was just looking for a job. Her parents did everything right to keep contact with her. Still, this happened. 

As the Victorian Government undertakes an inquiry into cults and fringe groups, stories like this matter. Not all cults are religious. Not all cult recruits fit the same profile. 

Listen well. THIS is the harm we have to stop

This episode lands at a crucial point of religiopolitical history, as we talk about all things New Apostolic Reformation. Academic Jon Sawyer joins me as we talk about some juicy, heavy hitting topics - conspiratorial demonology, weaponisation of testimony culture, self-invisible LGBT Christians, sexual orientation and gender identity change efforts, load language inside Evangelicalism, white supremacy and indoctrination techniques used in Christian Nationalism. I mean...that about covers whats wrong in the world, doesn't it? 

You really should look at the rest of Jon's work at https://www.jonsawyer.org/ and of course his contribution to Dr Lucas Wilsons, book "Shame Sex Attraction." (Find it here https://amzn.asia/d/5Et3wfT) 

Its a vital time in history to be informed, especially if you are in a Westernised nation where the backlash against progress, and the decrying of "Wokeism" (ie. Empathy and respect for others) threatens a Christian Nationalist uprising masked as resurging religiopolitial conservatism. This episode, Blake Chastains episode (and book), and Lukes episode (and book) need to be top of your to-listen lists. And I'm not often demanding like that. 

When Dr Luke Wilson reached out to me with a copy of his book, I was struck by the most obvious thing in the world - I'm the ex-wife of a gay conversion therapy survivor but I've never had someone on the podcast who could actually talk in depth about that very thing. 

 

I guess it was too close to home. But its time. We need to move from representation to meaningful change, and that means understanding on a deep and nuanced level that sexual orientation and gender identity change efforts aren't always what you think they are. 

This episode hits on some big topics. Mental health, sexuality, genocide. Look after yourself as you listen. And remember you can call helplines if you need. In Australia, Lifeline is 13 11 14 and Qlife is 1800 184 527. In America, you can call 988. This is important stuff for all of us. But if its you, its REALLY important. There are safe hands to catch you as you recover. 

The long-ass URL for Dr Luke's book, Shame-Sex Attraction is as follows: https://www.amazon.com.au/Shame-Sex-Attraction-Survivors-Stories-Conversion-ebook/dp/B0D1S6SHC8/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.68eQVaWIgXB4gJREAz4RVPbwpkkCcVmdfJlm2WsT94Mnu2tfgUqzMhIVzDdME3t13Eth7h1oBh8slz8hQdk24wKq0TW4WLFIA3DIhDNVaV4.FxuRjpQ7Xp9MBxN-GqDYKhC_ZWqJX3TOy0nUcAmUzl4&dib_tag=se&keywords=shame-sex+attraction&qid=1733923623&sr=8-1

 

Luke's social media handles are as follows. 

Instagram: @lukeslamdunkwilson

Threads: @lukeslamdunkwilson

Bluesky: @lukeslamdunkwilson.bsky.social

Twitter/X: @wilson_fw

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucas-wilson-2a0753b1/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/luke.wilson.96

 

In this episode of "The Pipelines" series, we meet Jane Kennedy. While she is now a religious trauma therapist and co-founder of the Religious Trauma Collective in Australia (which compiles resources and religious trauma-informed therapists for those of us who are recovering), she was once a youth leader and church planter. 

In this episode, Jane and I talk about some of the big themes that have emerged in her walk into and out of church, and the things that pop up in therapy a lot: from white saviourism, to dissociation, body awareness, "the father heart of God" and other recruitment tactics. Jane's calm presence and hard-won wisdom makes this episode a lot more relaxing than it could be! 

Find her at: on Substack at https://jane748.substack.com

and on Instagram at @janekennedycounselling 

 

Find me at: clareheathmcivor.substack.com and on instagram at @unchurchablepod or @clare_heathmcivor

In an episode that was recorded two days after the Trump victory, and less than 200 days from the next Australian Federal Election, this episode could not be more important or timely. In it, I chat to Blake Chastain, who launched the Exvangelical Podcast back in 2016 as he talks about his new book "Exvangelical and Beyond: How American Christianity Went Radical and the Movement That's Fighting Back."

We have long known that, where America goes religiously and politically, the western world tends to follow. In line with this, strains of Christian Nationalism, even white Christian nationalism, and other forms of fringe and extreme right-wing politics has spiked both here and overseas. 

Its one to pay attention to. Make sure you give it a listen. And if you're in Australia in the political scene, make sure you take the warnings and the advice seriously. 

www.blakechastain.com

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/747796/exvangelical-and-beyond-by-blake-chastain/

Instagram @brchastian_

You know I like to get existential. This time last year, I sat down with author and academic, William/Bill Egginton to talk about his book, "The Rigor of Angels." I'd been contacted by his publicist and was intrigued about the book and what it might offer exvangelicals who are reinventing themselves and might not know anything about poetry, philosophy, and quantum mechanics, much less the meaning of the Universe. It was too good a conversation to let sit in the archives after my year of hiatus. Since our chat, his book has won some awards including New York Times and New Yorker book of the year. You'll love it. And I hope you love this chat. 

Find out more here https://www.williamegginton.com/ or here https://www.amazon.com.au/Rigor-Angels-Heisenberg-Ultimate-Reality/dp/0593316304